Talk:Ainu people

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Regions with significant populations[edit]

It seems odd to me that Kamchatka Krai population is listed separately since it is part of Russia, should the Russia entry include "(excluding Kamchatka Kai)"? Kevink707 (talk) 17:48, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Ainu Genetics[edit]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23135232

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v49/n4/abs/jhg200432a.html

http://jspsusa.org/FORUM2012/presentation/3-2_Shinoda.pdf


http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201211010059

https://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201211010059

http://www.asianscientist.com/in-the-lab/ryukyuan-ainu-people-genetically-similar-2012/

http://japandailypress.com/research-shows-ainu-and-okinawans-more-genetically-related-0217724/

http://goldsea.com/Text/index.php?id=13814

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/japanorigin.htm

http://www.soken.ac.jp/news_all/2719.html

Thanks. We should stick with the academic sources. We can't use the pdf at the jspsusa forum, nor Watkins page, and news sources are never as good as the original papers they report but they often lead to the sources we need. Dougweller (talk) 09:45, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

sources on Ainu history[edit]

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/ftp02/NQ48593.pdf

Ainu wars against Japan

Koshamain revolt

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x8FO9evlIyoC&pg=PA27&dq=koshamain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=roS5UayoHJKO7AbnqIDgBg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=koshamain&f=false

Shakushain's Revolt

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-octogenarian-who-took-on-the-shoguns-1307033/

http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110004689021

http://www.historical-geography.net/volume_36_2008/jacobson.pdf

http://academic.evergreen.edu/curricular/decolonization/Education%20About%20Asia%20Dubreuil.pdf

http://www.anthropology.wisc.edu/Ohnuki-Tierney/files/1993-ainu-ency.pdf

Menashi-Kunashir Rebellion

Other

http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/abz.pdf

http://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/the_pits.pdf

Modern history

http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF56.htm

http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/21976/v1i1_02okada.pdf http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/21976/v1i1_02okada.pdf?sequence=1

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/ainu-people-lay-ancient-claim-to-kurile-islands-the-hunters-and-fishers-who-lost-their-land-to-the-russians-and-japanese-are-gaining-the-confidence-to-demand-their-rights-reports-terry-mccarthy-1552879.html

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10892182

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/012/i0370e/i0370e08.pdf

Rajmaan (talk) 06:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Ainu Australoid?[edit]

Hello, this section is a response to Sturmgewehr88's request. I didn't find an authoritative source for the claim that the Ainu are genetically Australoid. According to one study, the Ainu, despite miscegenation, don't cluster as closely with ancestral Northeast Asians as the latter do with one another.[1][2][3] By the way, notice that the title of the category says "type," not race, and the Ainu do exhibit a rather Australoid morphology. EIN (talk) 14:38, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The sources you provided only proved that the Ainu are distinct from other peoples, which is already a given fact, and nothing more. I agree that the Ainu are awkwardly placed, but you can't just infer that they're "Austroloid-type". ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 18:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Haplogroup C migration
Yes. I'll leave this to someone who may find indications for it in the future. But just to be clear, even though this would probably qualify as improper synthesis, it can be inferred by omission that the Ainu are Australoid from the premise that each of the presently existing humans can be categorized under at least one of the four macro-races. It's the most common hypothesis today that the Ainu originated from a merger of the Okhotsk and Satsumon people, who inhabited the Japanese Archipelago before the Yamato and could have been part Australoid for all we know. It makes sense that the Ainu are Australoid if, considering the genetic and archaeological clues, it's true that before the Mongoloids and Caucasoids came, the Australoids occupied a much wider area than just Australia and Melanesia - from Africa via the Arabian Peninsula, an area spanning as far westward as the Indian subcontinent, as far northward as the The Japanese Archipelago or farther, and maybe even as far eastward as the Americas (see Pericúes and Fuegians). Also see Haplogroup C-M130. EIN (talk) 11:52, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Ok, well if you find a few sources that support this, then you can re-add the category (or find a better one) and add the information to the article. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 13:57, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Ainu in Tokyo[edit]

In March 2014, a new volume was published looking at the Ainu community in Tokyo, which may be worth drawing from in terms of fleshing out the section here dealing with this sub-set of the Ainu diaspora beyond Hokkaido. However, I wasn't sure how best to draw from this source in order to further inform the article. Has anyone else here taken a look at this volume yet, to see what kind of information might be worth referencing? --Nerroth (talk) 16:16, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Questionable magazine quotation misleadingly attributed to a reprint in a source that doesn't ADMIT to being bad at fact-checking...[edit]

I removed

" Tokyo's thriving Ainu community keeps traditional culture alive," Japan Today, March 1, 2009.

as a source for the claim

In a 2009 news story, Japan Today reported, "Many Ainu were forced t o work, essentially as slaves, for Wajin (ethnic Japanese), resulting i n the breakup of families and the introduct ion of smallpox, measles, cholera and tuberculosis into their community. In 1869, the new Meiji government renamed Ez o as Hokkaido and unilaterally incorporate d it into Japan. It banned the Ainu languag e, took Ainu land away, and prohibited sal mon fishing and deer hunting."

Let alone the fact that, per the source cited , it is not a 2009 news story reported by Ja pan Today but rather "originally appeared in Metropolis magazine", but ... how can J apan Today be considered a reliable news source (much less a source for difficult sch olarly/historical issues) when they have bo rrowed over 400 stories wholesale from Metropolis, a popular free magazine whose publisher, according to its own websit e, makes no representations about the accuracy of the information, data, advertise ments, graphics, or other content contained in any Japan Partnership website, e-mail newsletter, or print publication, including but not limited to the Japan Partnership prin t and online magazine, blogs, and other e mail newsletters, and any other media cha nnel owned or produced by Japan Partners hip? The story in question is attributed to Andy Sharp apparently a decent reporter for Bloomberg, but unless he's a renowned scholar of Ainu studies (and per WP:BURDEN we must assume he isn't) then material he writes for Metropolis must be taken as his opinion and his opinion only. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:40, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

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Removal of data[edit]

There was a huge removal of missing data by Krakkos so I reverted it back to it's normal state.

If there is any mistakes on the page than it should be removed immediately but I see not one problem since they are all sourced properly.

It's the responsibility of an editor restoring sock puppet edits to ensure they are satisfactory. That includes checking the sources, which I doubt this editor did. One obvious sock has already been blocked for restoring material by another WorldCreatorFighter sock puppet. Doug Weller talk 21:57, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

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Pronunciation[edit]

I don't know which of these is the correct pronunciation of "Ainu", but whichever it is should be placed toward the beginning of the page to help clarify the matter.

/ˈeɪnuː/ AY-noo

/ˈaɪnuː/ EYE-noo

IPA is generally not needed for Japanese as the pronunciation is consistent. Additionally, only about 1% of the world's English population even understands how to pronounce something in IPA. It's practically useless for anyone outside of linguists. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:57, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
What does it mean to say that the pronunciation is consistent? And how does this help an English speaker who doesn't know how the word is pronounced in Japanese? Lots of pages on Wikipedia give IPA transcriptions, including the page for Japan itself. Anyone who can hover their mouse over an IPA transicription on Wikipedia can understand how to read it, as the hover text explains the pronunciation for each phoneme. I also gave the "pronunciation respelling key", not just the IPA. The fact that I still have no clue which way the word is pronounced is evidence that you're wrong and that some sort of clarification is needed. And clarification of pronunciation on Wikipedia comes in the form of the sorts of transcriptions I offered above. This is standard procedure, all across this site.
Just noticed that the page for the Ainu language has an IPA transcription. Now I know which way it's pronounced (/ˈaɪnuː/). More evidence that this should be added to this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kester Nethlo (talk • contribs) 21:17, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

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Another potential representation in popular culture[edit]

It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, and I'm not sure how accurate this is, but apparently the main character of the movie Princess Mononoke, Ashitaka, and the tribe he's from are meant to be Ainu. The actual way they're portrayed and their appearance skews more towards Japanese. They make mention in the movie, albeit in passing, that they consider themselves distinct from the other Japanese people who live in the area. I don't feel comfortable adding this to the article since I'm not 100% sure if it truly is a representation of the Ainu people or not, but I just thought I'd bring it up so someone more knowledgeable could look into it. 69.178.89.139 (talk) 07:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

They're actually Emishi, and Miyazaki specifically said they were not Ainu. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:50, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

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Samurai[edit]

The section claimed "several historians" without naming any. Obviously C. Loring Brace isn't one and isn't decribed.as one. I can't find anyone who agrees and thus this is WP:UNDUE. A quick search turns up these sources about the relationship between them.[4][5][6] Doug Weller talk 16:02, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Back and forth editing[edit]

I want to urge both DerekHistorian and Gyatso1 to bring their arguments to this talk page, instead of doing wild back and forth edits which will make it hard for other editors to re-check the recent edits. I share DerekHistorian's concern about claims not backed up by sources, including claims inserted in edits by Gyatso1. But the speed of deletes and insertions comes close to edit warring, and both of you should come to a calm discussion here and not heat up flames on personal talk pages. Doug Weller, probably you can come in too and help to moderate please. –Austronesier (talk) 20:29, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

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