Talk:Confucianism

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This article should clearly state that Confucianism status as a religion is disputed[edit]

Rather than avoiding the topic, we should clearly say there's no consensus on whether Confucianism is a religion or not. I've done so through a note with two reliable sources; I presume few more refs wouldn't go amiss there, and people may want to rewrite the quotes into something better (but I'd recommend keeping them in the body through |quote= parameter). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Probably it would be better to explain that three things are going on: (1) There was a view of 天 tiān as a god that existed long before Confucius, that was associated with the political philosophy espoused by the early Zhou rulers (particularly the Duke of Zhou), and that continues to this day. (2) Confucius revered the Duke of Zhou and explicitly took it upon himself to support and explain the political philosophy that guided the early Zhou rulers, including such things as the doctrine of 天命 tiān mīng (the Mandate of Heaven). That religious view has continued down to the present and was (allegedly) active in the fall of the Diem regime and attempted (non-communist) successor regimes in Vietnam. (3) Independent of what Confucius, Mencius, and other people in that mainstream group thought, other people tried to make Confucius into a god. I don't know whether there are any statistics or any studies that otherwise show how influential this attempt was during the relatively brief period wherein it had some kind of institutional presence, whether anybody actually prayed to Confucius, etc. If being a "god" constitutes the foundation of a religion, was then Zhang Fei the center of a religion?
What people call "Confucianism" today is probably not limited to the views expressed by Confucius, and probably is not limited to respect/veneration for him as a "holy man." My understanding of Confucianism is that it is a somewhat amorphous collection (probably varying from individual to individual and with no pope to define a "true core" of belief) of beliefs regarding 天，ethical values that proceed from the early Zhou founders, amplifications of these values and rational discussions about why they are so made by Confucius and particularly by Mencius, and probably come accretion of totalitarian ideas or at least authoritarian views taken over by osmosis from Xun Zi and the Legalists. So it's all a bit messy. It's also extremely powerful because it suffuses the culture, provides things that "everybody knows is true" because everybody has been enculturated to the same general take on how best to be a human being, as hard to challenge as it is to punch the wind, etc. P0M (talk) 17:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

confucian(儒家) is an academic faction. From the first century AD to the third century AD, the Chinese emperor transformed the The faction a national religion called "Confucianism"(儒教). The religious leader was the emperor and respected Confucius as his mentor. The Chinese believe that their emperor is Son of Heaven Therefore, a religious ritual "sacrifice to heaven(祭天)" was born, Also build temples for people who contribute to the country

Confucianism restricts various norms to include the inauguration of obtaining orthodox power for the next emperor.Men's adult ceremony, student entrance ceremony.If there is no ceremony, it will not be recognized,Have a legal meaning

confucian do not worship God because they are scholars.But Confucianism has, Their god called 「昊天上帝」including having places of worship and clergy.They adore the saints and heroes and ancestors of the past, the stars on the sky and the mountains and rivers on the ground. — Preceding unsigned comment added by --Dyer-wolf (talk) 09:49, 6 June 2020 (UTC)Dyer-wolf (talk • contribs) 09:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Inconsistency[edit]

Plotinus' Neoplatonism is/was a religion, but is not mentioned as such on the Neoplatonism page.

The Chinese did not have a word for "religion" until the 18th century, imported from Japan, yet Ruism is said to be a religion. The nations influenced by Kong Fuzi are some of the most secular nations on the planet, for crying out loud.

If talking about the heavens and things like that makes Ruism a religion, is not Platonism a religion as well? I would rule out Kantianism as a religion on grounds that it is not a religion into itself, but a part of the Christian faith.

It is not uncommon for Westerners traveling in the Far East to attribute local customs and traditions to religion, even when they have nothing to do with religion. But certainly, a dictionary should be a notch or two above that.

This smells like exotism to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 20:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

The use of an English word to describe the social constructs produced in a different culture and using a different language is frequently going to be problematical. Naming a religion after a founding figure is also problematical. Jesus did not think of himself as founding a new religion, yet we ended up with Christianity (or maybe a bunch of them). Confucius did not think of himself as anything but an elaborater of early Zhou dynasty ideas. Mencius followed him but did not seek to make him anything more than a great teacher. Later on, however, he was sometimes officially recognized as a 神 shen, a "god" but more in the sense of Jupiter or Saturn or perhaps a deified Roman emperor. On top of that, the early ideas that he and Mencius took as the core of their thought clearly were religious. The religious texts are found in pre-Confucian documents. Of course the Chinese don't call this religion 孔子主義 (Confucius ideology) or 孔子教 (Confucius religion). So they don't create the confusion of naming the religion after someone who came much later.
A good way to at least get a start on seeing the pre-Confucian religion is to get a copy of Wing-tsit Chan's A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy and start reading through the early Zhou materials. There was a god. That god needed to be respected. There were sacrifices to be performed to that god. That god had as one of his most important (to humans at least) functions the determination of when a corrupt dynasty needed to be ended and what individual would become the founding ruler of a new dynasty. Most of the ceremonial stuff falls to the sovereign to perform, so it is a religion that is less intrusive in the daily lives of ordinary people. But the moral responsibilities once laid upon ruler somehow came to permeate the entire culture and became the rules by which ordinary people lived and motivated how they behaved toward others. (You can see some of this in the teachings of Confucius.)
教 means "the teachings of," so, e.g., 道教 is "the teachings of the (religious) Daoists." It doesn't mean "religion" in the sense of a binding. But arguing from the meanings of words in English and roughly equivalent words in Chinese doesn't really have anything to do with the character of the beliefs of the Chinese and those of Jews, Christians, or whtever. The basic idea of the Chinese religion associated with Confucius is a warning to the king or emperor: "God will get you if you do not treat his people right!" That idea carried down in practice until at least the 1970s. See FitzGeralds Fire in the Lake. The jig was up for South Vietnam when Diem lost the "Mandate of Heaven," the command from God that he and his descendants should rule the nation. Once the people made that assessment, FitzGerald contends, no replacement ruler could be grafted on by the United States or anybody else.P0M (talk) 07:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I am well aware of the problems of dealing with different cultures. And the Western culture is perhaps less equipped to do that than any other culture, since Western culture is still virtually synonymous with Christian thought.
My main point is Ruism contra Neoplatonism. Ruism is frequently referred to as a religion, whereas Neoplatonism is not. You cannot ask of all people to be consistent, but you can of a dictionary. If one is identified as a religion, the other has to.
The biggest problem with Confucianism may just be the name. It comes with a lot of baggage, just like the word "Oriental." We no longer refer to people of Kong Fuzi's race as Orientals for that reason. Confucianism along fortune cookies can actually be seen as part of Western Orientalism. We should do the same with Confucianism as we did with "Oriental." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 14:05, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Confucian idea of Universal Brotherhood or a pan-racial Great Commonwealth[edit]

confucian universal brotherhood or a "Great Commonwealth"

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y36aAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA113#v=onepage&q&f=false

Tianxia yijia 天下一家 all under heave in one family

http://books.google.com/books?id=qpRowjjUFLQC&pg=PA122&dq=man+han+yijia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iG4wVNrxBY7CsASF1oGgAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=man%20han%20yijia&f=false

The quoted material below is public domai. They can be used as quotes while the above sources can be used as referencea.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PwAbVyBZeR4C&pg=PA202#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=E7g3AQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA202#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=6SouAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=k8hrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA250#v=onepage&q&f=false

Title Surname Book and Racial History: A Compilation and Arrangement of Genealogical and Historical Data for Use by the Students and Members of the Relief Society of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Author Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. General Board of the Relief Society Editor Susa Young Gates Publisher The Society, 1918 Original from the University of Wisconsin - Madison Digitized Aug 6, 2008 Length 576 pages Subjects Names, Personal Utah

"In the genealogical tables of China, much attention is given to the line of the male descent, particularly the stem, or hereditary line; but very little attention to the female line, it being understood, if no record to the contrary, that the female is of the same family and naturally and surely traces back to the original stem in any event; being a matter of a certain number of generations removed. In closing these somewhat discursive remarks upon the family life and genealogy of the Chinese people, I am reminded that in the last analysis all the people of the earth are really members of one family, and I cannot better close than by repeating the words of Confucius: "The People of the Four Seas, i. e.. the people of all the world, are all one brotherhood." And also he said: "There is only one universal Family in the world." And again he said: "In the Golden Age, men will treat all elderly people as their parents, all young persons as their children, and all of equal age as brothers and sisters." To the wise man there is, in all this broad and immense world, "but a single family," governed by One Supreme Intelligence. When this Family recognizes this Truth, and in direct and real sincerity practices the few and perfectly simple rules of benevolent morality as taught by our ancient sage, then will it be an "enlightened, civilized" family."

.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hswPjsESizYC&pg=PA50#v=onepage&q&f=false

Title Correspondence respecting the alleged existence of Chinese slavery in Hong Kong: presented to both Houses of Parliament by Command of Her Majesty Volume 3185 of C (Series) (Great Britain. Parliament) Author Great Britain. Parliament Edition reprint Publisher Printed by G.E. Eyre and W. Spottiswoode for H.M.S.O., 1882 Length 248 pages


"Whilst thus the idea of absolute rights inherent in men, and the recognition of the absolute equality of every human being, has been slowly and gradually evolved in the West, and thereby procured, in the course of ages, the virtual abolition of slavery, we find an entirety different development of the same ideas in China. That flower and fruit of modern Christian civilization, the practical realisation of the consciousness of the common fatherhood of God and the universal brotherhood of man, as the heirloom of every human creature, ha3 been the very seedcorn and root from which the Chinese social organism has sprung up. That Heaven and Earth arc the common parent of all human creatures, that all men within the four seas (i.e. all people that on the earth do dwell) arc brethren, is the keynote of the religious, social, and political teaching of the most ancient Chinese classics. In that ancient period of Chinese history which is still looked upon as the classical norm and guide for the present and future, the Chow dynasty (founded 1122 B.C.), slavery was abolished in every form except that of the condemned criminal. Although slavery was re-established by the Han dynasty (3rd century B.C.), which developed the patriot potestas to such an extent as to give parents relation of hereditary slaves to wealthy Cantonese clans, under whose protection they live, and to whom they pay portion of their earnings. There is, however, nothing in his outward appearance or condition to distinguish such a slave from a free person. Although I spent the greater portion of fifteen years in some inland districts of the Canton Province, I have never to my knowledge seen such an hereditary slave. I am told that generally only the nearest acquaintances know a slave to be such, and that the only outward distinction of an hereditary slave is the rule made by custom, that on New Year's Day, when even the poorest free man, who goes about barefoot all the year through, dons shoes and stockings, the slave has to wear wooden clogs. I am sure there is not one such hereditary slave in Hong Kong. But suppose one came here, and were told that he is entirely free on British soil, it would make no difference to him whatever; for he looks upon his master as a refuge to fall back upon in case of sickness, and anyhow he treats his relation to his master as a family relation, and views his adherence to it as a matter of honour. Besides, any such slave has always a chance of purchasing his freedom, and if once affranchised his descendants in the third generation can compete r for official honours. This system of slavery, whilst comparatively rare in the Canton Province, is more frequently practised in the Fohkien Province, where by custom the third generation of an hereditary slave regains freedom. But the principal seat of this slavery is in the agrarian districts of Shantung, and most especially in the Hwui-chau, Ning-kwoh, and Ch'i-chou Prefectures of the Ngan-hwui Province. It is also said to exist to a large extent among the fishermen of the Cheh-kiang Province. But in all these cases the slave is a member of the family to which he belongs, which is answerable for his life to the State, and the law permits all such slaves to redeem themselves by money payment, when the contract which restores liberty to the slave is to be stamped and recorded in Court."

http://books.google.com/books?id=kgCDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

The subjects of the Flowery Kingdom do not call their country "China," but Chung Kwoh, or "Middle Kingdom." It is incorrect to say that this is because the people believe that China lies in the middle of the earth. Chang Chih-tung rightly says that the name is derived from "The Doctrine of the Middle," which is an important section of their canonical "Four Books." The principles of the Chinese do not go beyond, and do not fall short of, what is just and right. The " Middle Kingdom " is therefore so called because its organization was supposed to be perfect and complete. We Americans proudly imagine that our country is E pluribus UNUM.—Translator

China's only hope By Zhidong Zhang, Samuel Isett Woodbridge

Rajmaan (talk) 22:59, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Feminism and Confucianism[edit]

Feminism and Confucianism have stood as two groups for a long time. Feminism critiques Confucianism because it oppressed women by depriving them of rights since they had to obey men and had few rights to make decisions themselves. However, the cooperation of both group are still possible and encouraged by many scholars in modern century.Feminist can challenge Confucianism as well as Confucianism can expand the horizons of Feminism.Confucianism focuses on the topic of people and family.It tells how significant family can be to the country,which corresponds to Feminist's purpose of caring individuals.What's more, Confucianism's idea of "three bonds" and "ren,yi,li,zhi,xin" also shows a progress in establish morality,as well as building a new-world ideal women."Confucianism be our point of entry into the new world of a hybrid feminist theory in transnational feminist discourse"[1] Although there are still a long and hard way to go, the mixture of Confucianism and Feminism is in exploration.

References

  1. ^ Rosenlee (2010). A Feminist Appropriation of Confucianism. p. 178.

Confucianism's influence on women daily life[edit]

Confucianism obviously has a great impact on women life and the impact doesn't vanish as time went by. The positive part is that, the influence is also changing through out the history. In ancient time, people paid more attention on the restrictions whereas nowadays, women focus more on how it could help them to behave better. In ancient world, Confucianism set moral standards for the world and raise it higher for women. A lot of women rights were restrict at that time, although there is no such thing called human rights. The idea that educations and jobs were mostly offered to men has the same idea of women rights been taken. (Kim)Obedience is another major concept that will always be linked with ancient women. For their whole life, they have been asked to obey to the important men in their life including father, husband and son. (Kristeva)Their daily life is mainly taking care of the whole family, doing housework,cleaning, cooking or so. This is pretty much the duty of women and the life for a common women in ancient world. It can't be deny that women nowadays has a better environment of living than ancient times. Also, they have learned to take advantage of Confucianism by following the idea of behave well. The sayings in the Analects taught people how to become a Junzi.(De Bary) Originally, it talks about men, but women apply that to them as well in order to improve their behavior. It is true that some of the women still play a role as housewife these days, but they are only a small part of the female population. The majority of women do have a job that requires them to work several hours in a certain amount of time and usually on a daily bases. (Wei)They take the idea from Analects learn and think at the same time, trying to become a better person, and behave well during both work time and after work at home. As a major thought in Asian , Confucianism plays an important role in people's life. Women are definitely influenced by Confucianism and it could be seen in their daily life. Alone the time line, Confucianism has improve their idea and so does it's effect on women life. In today's world, women are getting more positive impact from the Confucianism.[1][2][3][4] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freya0929 (talk • contribs) 19:39, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ De Bary, William Theodore. 2008. Sources of East Asian tradition. New York: Columbia University Press. Selections: "Confucius and the Analects" 29-40; "Mencius" 71-92.
  2. ^ Kristeva, Julia. (1977) 1986. "Confucius –An Eater of Women." In About Chinese Women, 66-99. New York: M. Boyars.
  3. ^ Kim, Yung-Chung. 1976.Hanguk yosongsa = Women of Korea: a history from ancient times to 1945: an abridged and translated edition. Seoul: Ewha Womans University Press.
  4. ^ Wei Guoying, 2002. Modern women choice and Confucianism. Beijing University Research of feminism.

Women in Confucianism[edit]

Foot-Binding was a widely practice custom within Chinese society and began somewhere between the Tang and the Song Dynasty. The second ruler of the Tang dynasty, Li Yu is said to have "compelled his favourite Yaoniang to bind her feet so as to dance on the image of a large lotus flower." This custom was first common among the aristocracy and then later spread throughout society. Mothers would often start this practice on their daughters before they were five years old by bending their toes under the bottom of their foot, and then bandaging them. The foot-binding process would often last ten to fifteen years, the end result was high immobility.[1] Tang painters and poets had high regards for the bound foot and considered the cripples foot the most erotic part of the female body. This is seen through their cultural practices – "Tang painters depict a woman's genitals, but never a naked crippled foot." The crippled foot was so sacred it was meant for the husband's eyes alone, which lead to the creation of a "special stocking, whose style changes according to fashion, must cover the foot, even during sexual intercourse, if servants or other witnesses are present." This practice functioned more than anything as a means to impress a woman's in-laws, as the crippled foot would function as "an undeniable proof of her capacity to suffer and obey." [2]


The mother-in-law played in an essential role in a woman's lives. A woman was respected based on how obedient she was towards her mother-in-law. A Pattern for Women, says: "If a daughter-in-law (who follows the wishes of her parents-in-law) is like an echo and a shadow, how could she not be praised?"[3] While women are often powerless within the Confucianism discourse, if a woman were to give birth to a son, she will ultimately become a mother-in-law giving her authority over her daughter-in-law, and therefore over her son's household, in many ways (i.e., childbearing).[4] This sentiment is captured best, in Pattern for Women: "Whenever the mother-in-law says, 'Do not do that,' and if what she says is right, unquestionably the daughter-in-law obeys. Whenever the mother-in-law says, 'Do that,' even if she says is wrong, still the daughter-in-law submits unfailingly to the command." [5] Akim48 (talk) 19:46, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Barrows, Julia Kristeva ; translated from the French by Anita (1986). About Chinese women (Reprint. ed.). New York: M. Boyars. ISBN 0714525227.
  2. ^ Barrows, Julia Kristeva ; translated from the French by Anita (1986). About Chinese women (Reprint. ed.). New York: M. Boyars. ISBN 0714525227.
  3. ^ Wang, Robin R. (2003). Images of Women in Chinese Thought and Culture Writings from the Pre-Qin Period to the Song Dynasty. Indianapolis: Indianapolis/Cambrige. ISBN 0872206513.
  4. ^ Barrows, Julia Kristeva ; translated from the French by Anita (1986). About Chinese women (Reprint. ed.). New York: M. Boyars. ISBN 0714525227.
  5. ^ Wang, Robin R. (2003). Images of Women in Chinese Thought and Culture Writings from the Pre-Qin Period to the Song Dynasty. Indianapolis: Indianapolis/Cambrige. ISBN 0872206513.

Feminist Confucianism and Confucian Feminism[edit]

Tu weiming states in his book that Confucianism is still valid in modern society and can be a useful pattern for Asian countries. [1] However, feminist criticizes Confucianism as an eater of women by setting unfair rules on women. [2]Feminism is criticized for its misunderstanding on women's oppression in the third countries studying in western eyes. [3]

Both Confucianism and feminism have their limitation and learning each other can help them develop both because both of them have advanced ideas to develop themselves. Rosenlee carries out a project to connect Confucianism and feminism by combining the advanced ideas from both to develop a new idea. For instance, yin-yang or nei-wai is the theory of Confucianism, which has somewhat women's oppression. Rosenlee keeps the advanced idea of this notion and brings positive idea from feminism to develop a new idea based on this, which does not keep the women's oppression. The new idea of Italic textnei-wai in Confucianism can help Confucianism walk further. [4]Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). Confucianism has been criticized strictly for its women's oppression by limitating women's rights, which stopped it entering to western world. Learning the advanced idea of feminism can help Confucianism develop better.

References

[5]Tu, Weiming. "Tasan Lecture #3: A Confucian Response to the Feminist Critique." Korea, November 2001.

[6] Kristeva, Julia. (1977) 1986. "Confucius –An Eater of Women." In About Chinese Women, 66-99. New York: M. Boyars.

[7] Mohanty, Chandra Talpade. 1988. "Under Western Eyes: Feminist Scholarship and Colonial Discourses." Feminist Review 30: 61-88.

[8] Rosenlee, Li-Hsiang Lisa. 2010. "A feminist appropriation of Confucianism." In Confucianism in Context. eds., Wonsuk Chang and Leah Kalmanson, 175-190. Albany: State University of New York Press. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ranzhang (talk • contribs) 01:30, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ [1]
  2. ^ [2]
  3. ^ [3]
  4. ^ [4]
  5. ^ 1.
  6. ^ 2.
  7. ^ 3.
  8. ^ 4.

Confucian influences on women's daily[edit]

Confucian influence on women's daily life through time can be divided into the following periods including Before Confucianism, Ancient times, Post-ancient times and Modern society.

Before Confucianism refers the time when Confucianism does not form and is adapted in the society. Women at that time can have more women rights. For instance, before Confucianism is adapted, in Korea women and men can bather together in a river and remarriage is allowed in the society.[1] Ancient times mean the era when Confucianism is formed and gradually becomes the orthodox and reminds the status of orthodox. This is the era when women's oppression reaches the highest level. Affected by Confucianism, the society sets many rules on women. For instance, women can only stay in-door and can not go out for social activities without permission of men in home. Women can not remarry to other men although her husband is dead while men can have the right. [1]Women are admired to have no education and their main job is bear children and looked down when they bear daughters. Men can have several wives while a woman can have one and her rights will be harmed as a wife it she is concubine.[3]

Post-ancient times mean the era when new idea comes to the society and arouses some criticism on the women's oppression. In China, this era starts from the May 4th Movement. Women start to increase their social activities and foot-binding is prohibited. Monogamy is popular in society protecting women's rights in marriage. Women are encouraged to go to school to receive education. Confucian influence on women at this time has reduced and new advanced idea from western countries affects the society more.

Modern society means the Confucianism are not the orthodox any more. In China, this era can start from the establishment of China. Although Confucianism is not the orthodox in society any more and women's oppression is not strict as before, Confucian impact on women's daily life is still strong because this is has been somewhat a culture. For instance, in today's society, women are still admired to bear a son. Women are still regarded as out comer of the new family. Women without education are still seen as considerable in some remote countries. Fortunately, the situations above are better than the past. In modern society, Confucianism also has positive impact on women's daily life. For instance, the self-cultivation encourages women to acquire higher education degree. [3] Generally speaking, the women's oppression of Confucianism has reduced greatly but still exists in some areas and its positive impacts on women are becoming more.

References

1. Kim, Yung-Chung. 1976. Hanʼguk yŏsŏngsa = Women of Korea: a history from ancient times to 1945: an abridged and translated edition. Seoul: Ewha Womans University Press. p 83-86.

2. Lee, Peter H., Sources of Korean Tradition. New York: Columbia University Press, 1997.p 317.

3. Tu, Weiming. "Tasan Lecture #3: A Confucian Response to the Feminist Critique." Korea, November 2001.para11.

Oh Geez[edit]

The problem of second-rate academics trying to impress one another at Wikipedia is becoming a major issue and taking a valuable resource down the toilet.

Please write articles that the general public can read, and where they can quickly and easily grasp the essentials of a topic. The general public doesn't need to know that Confucianism is also known as ruism in the first paragraph! What are you thinking?

Academics have specialized texts that they can go to. There's no need to write for them here.

You will possibly be asking what the specific problem are. If so, that is the problem. If you don't know how to write for the general public then you shouldn't be writing here. --50.68.151.56 (talk) 23:48, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2015[edit]

Please insert this sentence at the end of the first paragraph of the subsection "modern times": Indeed, the influence of Confucianism on Chinese political and juridical structures is still visible nowadays.[1]

91.182.199.7 (talk) 15:53, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Mdann52 (talk) 19:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Mass edit and reworking[edit]

To be honest huge sections of this need to be reworked entirely by actual scholars. For one thing, there are very few scholars in Asian Studies who do not consider Confucianism a religion. I'll make plans to go over this whole article with another Asian History scholar over the summer, but if anyone has actually studied the topic extensively, redoing the introduction would be a good start. For reference, I'm completing research now on education and ethics in East Asia for an MA in Asian Studies and I'll sucker an expert in Chinese history to work with me. We're not Confucian scholars but we have enough general scholarly expertise in China (him) and Asian Ethics (myself) that we ought to be able to clean it up. If there is anyone else with academic expertise that would like to assist post here, I'd love the help particularly from an East Asian religion scholar, but this really needs fixing, parts of it are damn irresponsible and reek of Western bias/Orientalism.

50.138.7.92 (talk) 09:14, 21 March 2016 (UTC)Randall

This article contains very little information about the Confucian tradition[edit]

This article contains very little information about the Confucian tradition and more information about what historical individuals in the past wrote about the tradition.--WindWalk55555 (talk) 12:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

etymology[edit]

i read that "Confucius" was an anglicization of Kǒng-fūzǐ. Maybe should someone tell to some ignorant people that anglophones were not always the first to discover things and that at the time of the first mention of the name of the philosopher (i.e. Middle Ages), the LINGVAFRANCA in Europe was Latin, so "Confucius" is actually a latinisation of the mandarin reading of the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.152.141.105 (talk) 07:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Possible Faulty Translation[edit]

In this part of the article "These are accompanied by the classical Sìzì (四字), that singles out four virtues, one of which is included among the Five Constants: 

   Zhōng (忠, loyalty);     Xiào (孝, filial piety);     Jié (節/节, contingency);     Yì (義/义, righteousness)."

The translation of Jié (節/节, contingency)seems to make no sense. Jié has been translated elsewhere as "continence", whose meaning is much more coherent with the Vietnamese translation of the word (Tiết). 88.113.33.176 (talk) 05:45, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

"Concile"?[edit]

Under the heading "Doctrines: Theory and theology", the second paragraph begins "The moral-spiritual ideal of Confucianism conciles both the inner and outer polarities..." This is confusing since "concile" does not seem to be a proper English word. I'm guessing that the editor meant "reconciles", or perhaps "conciliates". Can anyone speak to this? Bricology (talk) 00:13, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

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"lacking" vs "not found"[edit]

In the first section of this article, the following appears: "The disintegration of the Han political order in the second century CE opened the way for the doctrines of Buddhism and Neo-Taoism, which offered spiritual explanations lacking in Confucianism."

As "lacking" infers a deficiency, I'd suggest that it be replaced with "not found". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.77.72.122 (talk) 22:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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"a religion, a humanistic or rationalistic religion"[edit]

From the first sentence, this is redundant. A "humanistic or rationalistic religion" would fall under "religion". 216.8.164.193 (talk) 15:16, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Confucianism is defined as a philosophy, a religion and a humanistic or a rationalistic religion. Though in English there is only one word to describe all these definitions, but they do have quite a few differences. When we describe Confucianism as a philosophy, we always refers to the most previous thoughts that established by Confusions mainly related to "reng" and "yi" (special terms which are used to describe the core thoughts of original Confucianism), which are the purest thoughts referred to Chinese philosophy. However, the altering of Confucianism shaped it into a political ruling method of the realm, which is different from the original thoughts to some extent. Then, when we describe Confucianism as a religion, it has different meaning. Origined from the the combination of three religions--Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism. From this religion perspective, Confucianism is regarded as a kind of belief which is different from the perspective of defining Confucianism as a conventional Chinese philosophy. In fact, no matter we regard Confucianism as a philosophy or a religion, the contents are the same, what is changing is the environment of using the term and the perspective of anatomy of this definition.

Fixing a dead link[edit]

Under the Meritocracy section of this page, there is a dead link referring to a "H.G. Creel". Wikipedia does have a page for this person, under the title of Herrlee G. Creel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrlee_G._Creel

Change H.G. Creel to Herrlee G. Creel and it will redirect to the proper page. TomatDividedBy0 (talk) 15:52, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done Kostas20142 (talk) 16:04, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

"spirits or gods"[edit]

The part in the sentence in the lead on religion and humanism that says human's moral nature "unfolds through an appropriate respect for the spirits or gods (shén) of the world" should be removed. This appears to be one person's interpretation of "respect ghosts and spirits/gods but keep them at a distance" (敬鬼神而远之) and conflating it with other interpretations. I'm not sure that it should be given as a generally accepted understanding of the saying since others would interpret it differently, particularly when Confucius is commonly said to be "atheistic" or "disinterested in the supernatural". (Keith Knapp, "Confucian Views of the Supernatural", Early Medieval China: A Sourcebook). I'm sure it has been it's been frequently analyzed and there are many opinions on this saying, but one interpretation should not be given as the accepted consensus view. Hzh (talk) 10:20, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

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