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@Drbogdan I added the Astrobiological Copernican principle to Drake equation, since it seems more on-topic there; personally I think it's incorrect, but it probably has enough mainstream support for inclusion. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 03:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
@Rolf h nelson: Thank you for your comment - and adding the edit - yes - agreed - seems there may be sufficient mainstream support to include the edit - iac - Thanks again for your comment and all - and - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 13:51, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
The article aestivation hypothesis is obviously related to the Fermi paradox and so should probably be mentioned in the flow of the section about proposed explanations. I have done so, but this was @reverted by @Geogene based on the argument that aestivation hypothesis did not have sufficient weight to be mentioned in this article. This strikes me as odd -- in this case that page should perhaps be deleted, but if the page exists it looks weird not to link it here. Opinions welcome. --a3nm (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I have my doubts about the aestivation hypothesis' notability, but I'm not inclined to open an RfD, that might be WP:POINTY. I also think this argument that because an article exists elsewhere, the subject of that article must be mentioned and linked in the parent article, has an aspect of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. But the aestivation hypothesis article has another problem, too, namely that a paper [1] has since come out that claims that Sandberg et. al. misunderstood some critical aspect of the thermodynamics of computation when they formulated their hypothesis. On the talk page, the WP editors that edit that article are aware of the problem, but expressed a preference for leaving it to a subject matter expert in thermodynamics interpret that paper and write adequate coverage of it into the article. But the claim that it's based on bad thermodynamics is devastating, if true.
As far as Weight goes, I still don't think it has much. I've found through Google Books that the aestivation hypothesis paper is cited in Solving Fermi's paradox (2019) by Duncan Forgan, in the references [2]. I don't have access to the book and so can't find the context in which it was cited, but the term "aestivation hypothesis" never occurs in the body of the 426 page book, despite the author obviously being aware of the work. If someone has that book they can check and see if there's coverage that I overlooked. There's another book with aestivation hypothesis in the reference section, Evolution, Development and Complexity (2019), edited by Martinez et. al. [3], but no evidence of substantial coverage of the aestivation hypothesis [4] or Fermi's paradox [5]. Geogene (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
@Geogene: OK, thanks for looking into the notability of the aestivation hypothesis article. I'm not myself convinced about the notability of the article to be honest, I won't bother opening an RfD for it either, but feel free to do it if you like (I don't see the connection to WP:POINTY). I'm just saying that, if the article is there, there ought to be some kind of way to get to it from the Fermi paradox article (I don't see how this relates to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). If you think that it's less notable an explanation that all others listed in the body of the article, then fine, maybe keeping it under "See also" is the way to go. No strong opinion here, just thinking we ought to somehow connect the articles we do have in a sensible way. Other opinions from other editors welcome, I won't insist further myself in one direction or another. --a3nm (talk) 08:38, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Apparently this discussion didn't move fast enough for at least one author, who added the aestivation hypothesis anyway. I have fixed that addition, but recommend removing it altogether as the original paper was essentially debunked about two years after its initial publication. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:01, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Agreed, I just removed it. WP:ONEWAY applies. VQuakr (talk) 20:22, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
New addition at 'Willingness to communicate'[edit]
Shouldn't this paper from last month [6] wait until WP:SECONDARY sources are available discussing it? There is an unlimited supply of "solutions" to Fermi's Paradox, this article shouldn't cover all of them. Geogene (talk) 16:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I read the entire article and most of the Talk. I paid attention to the comment dates. There is an entire concept missing that should, I believe, have been raised anyway, but in the context of the global COVID-19 pandemic, which was well underway in the news media and politics by April 2020 when some of the comments occurred, I find its absence astonishing. It's not new. It's as old as H.G. Wells' science fiction novel, "War of the Worlds," where the ultimate doom of the Martian invading force was their utter lack of immunity to Earth microorganisms. I tend to think someone must have formally raised it already in response to the Fermi paradox, in which case it should have been included in the article. (I don't have time to search for that right now.) Whether you want to call it the "Microbiology factor", the "Pandemic factor," or something else, it can take either of two forms: (1) Avoidance: Intelligent civilizations WITH an awareness of germs and viruses being the cause of disease might well decide that the risk of physical exposure to any other life-bearing planet was excessive. (2) Ignorance: an intelligent civilization in terms of engineering and space travel might still LACK a germ theory of disease and not think of this concept. Through invasion OR peaceful contact they might bring about a pandemic on the visited world AND/OR their own and be unable to combat it due to that same ignorance, thus either slaying their population or forcing them back to a primitive mode of existence. A sociological reaction of utter aversion to extra-world contact could also result. Again, H.G. Wells thought of it. Michael Crichton somewhat approached it in his novel, "The Andromeda Strain," where the extraterrestrial organism arrived by physical accident rather than alien contact. It seems like a valid answer to the Fermi Paradox. To paraphrase Fermi, "Where is it?" SvensKenR (talk) 14:21, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
As interesting as it may be to wonder about what would happen should two independently evolved biospheres come into contact with one another - and one of those possibilities is that the biochemistry would be incompatible and thus infection would not be possible - I am not aware that any sources on the Fermi Paradox have discussed this as a possible solution, and so we cannot include it here, per WP:No original research. Additionally, this idea only answers why aliens have not come to Earth itself, but it doesn't answer why we as yet see no evidence of their activity in our astronomical observations - whether in radio signals or otherwise. Crossroads-talk- 18:51, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm surprised that there are no sources on the Fermi Paradox of which you are aware that have discussed it, although I understand why that would preclude adding it. However, it does not only answer why aliens have not come to Earth itself. I may have misstated the argument by only addressing the H.G. Wells scenario of contact between independently evolved biospheres and not including that our failing to see evidence of a civilization's activity in astronomical observations could be due to extinction or drastic reduction of activity due to a pandemic catastrophe within their biosphere. The concept of how large and complex a civilization can become before it creates conditions conducive to pandemic spread of infection, especially if awareness of microbiology (a la Pasteur) has not yet occurred, must have been addressed by someone. The development of population and trade in medieval Europe at the time of the Black Death seems very nearly to illustrate it.SvensKenR (talk) 20:07, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
"The loud rabbit gets eaten" or "Loud rabbits get eaten". I thought this saying was in common use as it pertains to humans sending out signals in a universe full of predatory aliens. However, I find no rabbits in this article, nor do I find anything on a Google search. Who said this? Charles Juvon (talk) 21:51, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
This sounds a lot like the Dark Forest Theory, which I first encountered in Liu Cixin's book, "The Dark Forest": "Dark forest theory" holds that civilizations fear one another so much that they don't dare to reveal themselves lest they immediately be considered a potential threat and destroyed.[1]Seganku (talk) 07:23, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
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