Talk:Anthropic principle

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Change Observational evidence Content tittle to Observation[edit]

-Change from; Observational evidence.

-Change to; Observation.

  • This Article is about the validity of infinite existence and infinite nonexistence without bias; that observation is a noun, observational[1] is a adjective biased then to existence; That observation is without bias when as a noun — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arnlodg (talk • contribs) 00:00, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ When a scientific truth arises, it is so because of observational and experimental consensus. THE CURIOUS PASSIONS OF MR. COSMOS: NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON ON SPACE, CLIMATE, AND WHY CURIOSITY WINS EVERY TIME|SCOTT BIXBY|JUNE 8, 2014|DAILY BEAST
So if I understand your argument here, you feel the sub-section is about the nature of observation and not observational evidence or if it is not, it should be. Since the whole section is WP:UNSOURCED and is somebody's essay told in Wikipedia's voice, it can really be anything you want. How about we just delete the thing along with culling everything in the article that is not attributed to some academic theorist. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:25, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Selection bias? or Biased selection, Lede needs work[edit]

The lede uses the phrase "selection bias" which usually means a statistical or informal logical fallacy referring to cognitive and statistical errors. Because there are no WP:RS in the lede, I'm wondering if the people who argue for selection amongst many worlds use the phrase "selection bias." Please let me know as I'm starting to research. I don't think physicists (or Nick Bostrom, or Max Tegmark) argue that the issue is that someone is actually selecting from amongst all the universes. Lee Smolin, for instance, argues for a type of natural selection for universes with black holes, which is not a statistical process, but one akin to Natural Selection in Evolution. But perhaps I'm wrong. At any rate, it should not be linked to an article on statistical error, so I will remove that.

SIDE NOTE: The article on Selection Bias has a subheading which links back to "Anthropic principle." There Bostrom and Tegmark are referenced, but I wonder if this isn't a self affirming but unjustified loop. One page supporting the other, when in fact, neither page has WP:RS. It's a type of meta SYNTH. I will comment on the other page as well.

I'm also going to remove the link to "philosophy" under "philosophical consideration" as I cannot find WP:RS that "Philosophical Consideration" is actually a term used in WP:RS. I mean, I know the words occur together but they are not used as a term of art or a single concept. No Philo Senior thesis have been written on "philosophical consideration" such that it is a distinct linkable concept. And yes, as you can tell, that means the lede needs work. But I'm going to research a little more before I attempt that. Cheers.DolyaIskrina (talk) 15:44, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

There are so many things wrong with the changes made to the lede that I reverted it back. I left the change made to the book reference. "Philosophical consideration" is a perfectly understandable notion. The anthropic principle simply is a philosophical consideration that observations of the Universe must be compatible with the conscious and sapient life that observes it. Unconscious life nor non-sapient life will not be making these observations of the Universe.
And it is not the "Philosophical consideration that a universe that contains observers seems unlikely, and yet here we are." That's rubbish. The AP is not the same consideration that the Fine-tuned Universe is. The Weak AP is simply the understanding that "conditions observed in the Universe must allow the observer to exist." A virtual tautology. The SAP is something more, saying that eventually some conscious and sapient life will have to emerge in the Universe if it is physically possible for it to emerge. And the SAP can be controversial. It is no tautology.
And the Weak AP combined with selection bias most certainly is used as an argument disputing that anthropic fine-tuning is remarkable. Not that everyone buys into that argument but nearly any cosmologist that accepts (or believes in) some reality with other universes in the multiverse, that WAP with selection bias is often cited as an explanation that discounts the notion of remarkability of apparent fine tuning.
Sorry, DolyaIskrina, but not every edit you make is helpful and this one certainly was not. 50.47.109.91 (talk) 06:17, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Sorry I think I placed my response in the wrong place, or maybe you replied while I was typing.DolyaIskrina (talk) 16:43, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
You may not like my definition, but you are reverting to a lede that has no WP:RS. Can you find a source that uses the phrase "philosophical consideration" to refer to AP? Secondly, given that there are over 30 definitions of AP, to pick the one you like and put that in the lede is SYNTH. So if you like we can work on a lede that is accessible to the lay reader and does not give any one definition a place of honor. I think Nick Bostrom is the bees-knees, but he is only one among many who treats with this issue, so I don't think we should let him have the first and last word. My first requirement is that the lede contain some sort of indication that this is a complex of ideas dealing with a specific issue. Of course what that issue is varies too. I think fine tuning is the most likely candidate, and Bostrom's book is pretty clear about that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DolyaIskrina (talk • contribs) 16:37, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
So I am not advocating for the title of the section called Variants, but the content of that section has variations on the definitions of the SAP from the likes of Carter, Barrow and Tipler, Bostrom, Wheeler. All variants of the definition are presented and ascribed to those advocating such. There is very little difference in meaning between the Carter definition of the WAP and the Barrow-Tipler definition of the WAP which, in the most concise language, are both consistent with the Merriam-Webster definition. Rather than have the lede reflect or emphasize any specific physicist/author's definition (even Carter), the lede should reflect the common meaning of the term and details and specifics can be dealt with below the lede.
The term "philosophical consideration" was not my composition, but I support it completely. It best describes, in common language, what class or category the AP falls into. It is not a scientific finding nor a "proof" of any sort. It is a consideration (something to consider) and the basis for it lies in philosophy.
The lede is quite good as it is. It does not show any bias between the various authors who have defined the term in their writings. It reflects the dictionary definition faithfully. And it shows, in the lede, where this discussion of the AP pops up and that is most often about either the age of the Universe (like why isn't it 1 billion years?) or about the alleged fine tuning whether that's terrestrial fine-tuning or universal fine-tuning. And it's all about selection bias. Observers would not be around to observe conditions in the Universe that are adverse. 50.47.109.91 (talk) 04:12, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
You wrote two great sentences above. Much better than the first sentence of the lede now. Would you oppose using a version of this? "The Weak AP is simply the understanding that "conditions observed in the Universe must allow the observer to exist." A virtual tautology. The SAP is something more, saying that eventually some conscious and sapient life will have to emerge in the Universe if it is physically possible for it to emerge." Perhaps a blend of the two? I like these sentences because you wrote them with the intention of being understood. To your expert eye, the current first sentence of the article lede works, but I promise you it is unintelligible to most people, even after having read the article. The lede is the most important part of the article. I worry that it uses arcane constructions to hide several agendas (not uncommon in ledes). As to "a philosophical consideration" I have found 0 occurrences of that phrase in wikipedia except in this article. If you search for "philosophical consideration" there are 16 occurrences in Wikipedia. None of them occur in the lede as part of a definition. 7 of them are quotations of this article. Given all the similar types of concepts covered by wikipedia, all the philosophical and cosmological topics that occur in the encyclopedia that would use the phrase if it were apt, to have it occur only once is proof that it is, in fact, a neologism and a violation of WP:MOS, WP:NOPV and WP:NPOV. If you can't find WP:RS associating "philosophical consideration" with AP it must go per Wikipedia policy. DolyaIskrina (talk) 16:31, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Earlier version did have that M-W definition as the lede sentence. In fact, I (with a different IP) was pushing for it. Personally, I think the M-W definition of the WAP is the most clear and concise of them all. But alas, other editors disagreed and you take what you can get. So I don't object from changing that very first definition shown to the M-W definition and citing M-W as a reference. But some other editors may. Let's see if they're paying attention. 50.47.109.91 (talk) 19:51, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Schopenhauer[edit]

Moved Schopenhauer here to discuss. If we cast the net wide enough to include him, then Descartes, Kant and all the philosophers who dealt with the relationship between perception and "reality" will also deserve a space. According to Bostrom, there are at least 30 variants of the AP, but I'm pretty sure that none of them deal with the question of perception qua perception. AP is about: fine tuning, selection bias, self selection assumption, teleology. In short the ontological import of observers coming to observe a universe such as ours. The issue is not one of epistemology and most definitely not one of introspection. In suggesting that Schopenhauer is utilizing the AP, Svensson is in essence coming up with a 31st variant of the AP. I think it should be cut or presented in a way to not give it undue weight. Cheers.

Arthur Schopenhauer was among the first atheist proponents of arguments along similar lines to the anthropic principle.[1][2]

DolyaIskrina (talk) 18:39, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Arthur Schopenhauer, Arthur Schopenhauer: The World as Will and Presentation, Volume 1, Routledge, 2016, p. 211: "the world [is a] mere presentation, object for a subject..."
  2. ^ Lennart Svensson, Borderline: A Traditionalist Outlook for Modern Man, Numen Books, 2015, p. 71: "[Schopenhauer] said that "the world is our conception." A world without a perceiver would in that case be an impossibility. But we can—he said—gain knowledge about Essential Reality for looking into ourselves, by introspection. ... This is one of many examples of the anthropic principle. The world is there for the sake of man."
It seems to me that this article should be about only the physical cosmology and the philosophy of physics definitions of the AP. Dicke, Carter, Barrow and Tipler. State what these physicists say, compare their definitions, and state what is different and who (that is noteworthy) has commented on any of these definitions and what they say the implications are. I think the article is best without Schopenhauer in it. And, even with him in it, should not be the beginning of the section. 2601:600:8880:5496:F161:52C9:3440:278B (talk) 01:26, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
@2601:600:8880:5496:F161:52C9:3440:278B: We agree about Schopenhauer. And while I have a personal preference for going even more narrow and talking only about cosmology, I do think that enough people are using the AP for theological and teleological purposes that it'd be too narrow if we cut those out.DolyaIskrina (talk) 22:21, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Secondary literature does mention Schopenhauer as a notable precursor (Lennart Svensson 2015). I have never encountered similar mentions about Descartes or Kant. Can we at least have Schopenhauer in the 'See also' section? --Omnipaedista (talk) 14:08, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
@Omnipaedista:Hmmm. Yes, I see the Svensson quote, so I understand why you'd include Schopenhauer. But frankly I personally find Svensson assertion to be a stretch. Is Svensson highly regarded? Did anyone else agree with Svensson's read of Schopenhauer? My worry that proto-AP credit would extend to other thinkers besides Schopenhauer isn't based on any secondary articles, it's based on what seems to me to be the weakness of Svensson's argument. My vote would be to do as you suggest and put Schopenhauer in the "see also". But I could also be persuaded that it's worth including a mention of Svensson's assertion that Schopenhauer was a precursor to AP. But I would not start the section with that, and I would definitely include it as an assertion of Svensson rather than an uncontroversial point about Schopenhauer. Thanks for discussing this here DolyaIskrina (talk) 19:47, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
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