Talk:Aikido

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Featured articleAikido is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 31, 2008.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 9, 2006Good article nomineeListed
February 16, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
March 20, 2007Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 30, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

World Games Programme[edit]

The template {{Sports of the World Games program}} has recently been added to the page. Whilst the World Games organisation does list aikido on their site, it is apparently only ever part of the Invitational Program, rather than featuring in the main sports categories. I personally am unconcerned about the addition of the template, but give PRehse's recent edit summary, I thought it worth bringing here for discussion. Yunshui 雲‍水 09:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Well the whole story of Aikido being included is something to tell. Aikido as represented by the IAF being essentially anti-sport - whereas the one style that regularly holds international competitions was completely blocked. Aikido was "demonstrated" and then only once. I think the template itself is just too inclusive.Peter Rehse (talk) 12:13, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

It's definitely featured more than once - I've found records of demonstrations from 1998, 2007 and 2007 at least. You're right about their anti-sport interpretation of it, though, and it's never been part of the main series of events (you'd think they'd have found a slot for Tomiki aikido, though!). I'd agree that the template is a bit indiscriminate in its content; perhaps it should be restricted to the official program only. Yunshui 雲‍水 12:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I was just going by the years listed in the link (not sure what the * means) and what I remember. So do we keep the link in the Aikido article? Peter Rehse (talk) 14:09, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I'd veer towards getting rid of it - aside from a link in the infobox the World Games Program isn't mentioned in the article, and so it's hard to envisage a situation where a reader viewing this article would think, "ooh, I must read more about the other sports in this World Games thing," and thus find the navbox template useful. It would probably be good to get a few other opinions, though. Yunshui 雲‍水 14:16, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I agree it should be dropped - it doesn't add any value or understanding that I can detect (not that the other templates at the bottom do much better). Good to see you active again, Peter. —Mrand Talk • C 13:24, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Done. I removed it but I will say that the other templates do help put Aikido in the larger context.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

The question is: the world knows of the existence of Aikido only every 4 years at the World Games because it's sports program. You supporters ashamed of this fact and want which is not specified. So we should delete the Aikido from Template:Sports of the World Games program. This seems crazy, but if you say that it should be, so be it. --Kasper2006 (talk) 08:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that the idea was that the template did not add anything useful to the Aikido article. There is no SHAME or CENSORSHIP or any other reactionary terms you want to throw around. The usefulness of links don't go both ways - Aikido does not link to all articles that mention Aikido both in this case and many others. The world games are just not very important in the context of the article. No comment on whether Aikido should be included in the template beyond the fact that it was only invitational and there was no competition.Peter Rehse (talk) 08:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
No problem, now in {{Sports of the World Games program}} Martial Arts are four: Ju-Jitsu, Karate, Sumo, Wushu. To the Official site of the World games are five. No problem, really, in Italy we say: «Contenti voi, contenti tutti» (Glad you all happy) ;-) --Kasper2006 (talk) 09:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Criticism section[edit]

The section was removed by an IP editor, but restored with the rationale that a criticism section is "integral part to a Featured article", but searching on this matter found nothing backing up that assertion, and contradicts what is written on the subject in essays and in policy. The section is also poorly sourced, placing way too much reliance on a self-published Wordpress blog. - SudoGhost 04:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

True - I just remember that during the Featured Article/Good Article process one of the major critiques was the lack of a critism section. If that has changed fine but it does remain a feature of Aikido that critism of training method and effectiveness do exist and the section attempts to address it. Better to improve references than just to delete the section without discussion. The initial feeling was the motivation was more of an attempt to whitewash rather than improve the article.Peter Rehse (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
If better sources can be found, it would be appropriate to include the content in the relevant sections such as this, but not in its own criticism section. As it appears currently it has no place in the article per WP:STRUCTURE: "Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other." - SudoGhost 16:23, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't disagree that it would be better to fold the debate into the narrative, but until that is done, we need not be in a hurry to throw what is there into the garbage. Note that WP:STRUCTURE doesn't say you can't have a separate section - just that it is best to try to include them in the narrative. As Peter mentioned, this was one of the critiques (rightly or wrongly) when it became a FA - so I'd like to see the current wording and sources still be available for those that have time to fold some info into the main body of the article - then the section can be eliminated. —Mrand Talk • C 23:37, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Until reliable sources can be found, it doesn't belong. The source used is a self-published wordpress blog, not the most reliable source for a section that shouldn't even be there in the first place. If similar content belongs then it needs to be integrated into the article with actual reliable sources, but what currently keeps getting reintroduced into the article does indeed need to be "thrown into the garbage" because it is garbage. It's poorly sourced content unduly placed in its own criticism section, and I don't think hanging onto problem-ridden content is helpful to the article. According to every relevant policy and guideline, keeping this section in the article is a step backwards in improving the article. I read the FA discussion, there was no critique that suggested a criticism section; integrating any appropriate criticism into the article was what was suggested, and this section does not do this. - SudoGhost 23:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
It is well sourced, but it might indeed be worth considering restructuring so that the first paragraph goes into the section on the roles of uke and nage (or even a new training subsection on realism), and the other two paragraphs go into the section on ki. Cesiumfrog (talk) 00:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Cesiumfrog - I believe the sourcing is acceptable. Maybe not great, but acceptable. Aikido Journal is not your everyday random web blog. —Mrand Talk • C 00:03, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
As per the discussion during the articles evolution I am going from memory which usually is pretty good. It might have been at the GA stage or Peer review or elsewhere. That said I also remember being a bit annoyed that it was asked for but (shrug) what can you do. Firstly I don't think the references are that unreliable (Stan Pranin) is a very well know historian of aikido with access to original material and Aikido Journal is actually published with additional on-line access as a service. The long and the short of it I don't think section blanking without discussion is appropriate especially for long standing articles that have undergone numerous peer reviews. If this talk generates changes in structure and a better article I am all for it.Peter Rehse (talk) 00:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
By the by - you all had me questioning my memory and a simple search of the article history found this Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Aikido which was the origin of the Criticism section. Again I have no real issue in keeping it or not as a separate section but also feel that at least some of that information should be retained.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure who is listening here anymore, but the first line of the criticism section ("The most common criticism of aikido is that it suffers from a lack of realism in training.") does not accurately reflect the content of the cited sources. The sources do not direct this criticism at aikido, but rather toward certain individual practitioners. Conflation of the two things is intellectually flaccid. Jdvonnahme (talk) 05:52, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree, I have yet to read a strong case made regarding this that could not be applied to other katageiko-based methods of trainingAikitech(talk) 05:52, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Whether the criticism is valid (debatable) or not, or whether it applies only to aikido is not the point - it certainly is an argument directed by some specifically to aikido. I think that is why it was included and for the sake of WP:NPOV why it should remain. Certainly there are aikido styles and practitioners out there that recognize the validity of the argument and try to address it. Peter Rehse (talk) 12:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Hakama trousers?[edit]

Hmm, the hakama I wore back in the day was more like a skirt. Certainly nothing like trousers as it didn't have legs. And like a long skirt, it was really conducive to falling down when you caught your big toe in the seam. Lol, good times... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.211.115.30 (talk) 14:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Aikido is sport[edit]

In order to be member of the sport organisation 'SportAccord', the sport organisation 'INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO FEDERATION' must document that their sport activity falls under SportAccord's definition of sport. Reference: http://www.sportaccord.com/en/members/application-procedure/

The SportAccord Council has developed a definition of sport to help them determine whether an applicant federation qualifies as an international sports federation Reference: http://www.sportaccord.com/en/members/definition-of-sport/

INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO FEDERATION has been admitted by the SportAccord: Reference: http://www.sportaccord.com/en/members/

Best regards, - Kontoreg (talk) 23:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

If you refuse the reference above so read following books instead:

  • http://books.google.dk/books?id=_o73NOjb4p4C&pg=PA139&dq=draeger+aikido&hl=en&sa=X&ei=scN-UqXZIqjJ4gTYpoH4DQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=draeger%20aikido&f=false Draeger, Donn F. and Robert W. Smith (1969) Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts. Kodansha International Ltd. Page 139. ISBN 0-87011-436-0<

Best regards, - Kontoreg (talk) 00:20, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Rationale for International Aikido Federation to join SportAccord has to do with the fact that certain countries (Russia comes to mind, but I am sure there are other), wanted Aikido to become a state-recognized sport with an eye to join the Olympics. Since IOC will only deal with a single international body representing an activity, and they use SportAccord to determine who it is that represents an activity internationally, it was decided that by IAF joining SportAccord, it is possible to block other groups from attempting to use the name "Aikido" for any kind of sport.
I'll quote from http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/09/13/international-aikido-federation-announcement-anti-doping-standards-for-aikido/
"the fact of the matter is, if a sport or martial art is not a member of SportAccord, then the name of sport can be hijacked, and original creators can be pushed aside, and sued for infringement. And even if they manage to defend themselves in the court, it costs a lot of money, nerves and time."
Thus the fact that Aikido is a member of SportAccord has very little to do with it being or not being a sport, and has everything to do with retaining control over the name.
Urokugaeshi (talk) 06:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
How can the term of sport and iaikido be hijacked? SportAccord is NOT the owner of the term 'Sport' besides the International Aikido Federation is NOT the owner of the term Aikido! - Kontoreg (talk) 08:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
A similar discussion came up in Talk:Kendo#Sport Accord.2C doping and weight. If you look through the list of members you see that the The International Lifesaving Federation is also a member. We have to beware WP:SYNTHESIS just because a body is a member of larger body does not imply Aikido is a sport. Rather than use membership of other organisations to define whether it is a sport I would be happier to go with how the major Aikido organisations describe the art.
The Sport Accord definition of sport is rather week basically that it includes "an element of competition" and does not rely on any element of luck.[1] Now if we look at the British Aikido Board's description of aikido[2] we have "Traditional Aikido has since its conception been non-competitive, however several styles have developed including Tomiki Aikido, which has introduced competitive aspects."
On the whole I've no objection to using the term "sport" in its appropriate place, there is a section at the end. However usings it in the first sentence introduces unnecessary controversy and undue weight.--User:Salix alba (talk): 18:59, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
The two references above are really week the first has "Aikido is neither simply an exercise, a sport, a combat form, nor purely physical education. But in some sense it is all these things though it aspires to higher ideals". I can't see how an author struggling to describe aikido can be taken as a definition. The second is specifically about Tomiki Aikido.--User:Salix alba (talk): 19:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
More about Aikido as a SPORT - see the paragraph below. - Kontoreg (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

A standard definition of "sport" is: "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment." (Even "The SportAccord Definition of Sport" currently lists competition as its first element.) Most aikido expressly renounces competition (and this is also inherent in the uke/nage roles). Despite the IAF having joined SportAccord, both make very clear [3] this is exceptional (participating in games only as demonstration rather than contest). Kontoreg, even the most cursory research on this topic shows that the categorisation of aikido as a sport is controversial (and widely rejected by aikido experts), and surrounded by extensive debate (such as the level of "resistance" that maximises both learning and safety whilst also preserving the integrity of both the martial aspect and the philosophical-growth aspect). So no, I don't think wiki should summarily categorise this topic in this way (and not broach in the lead, especially not granting undue weight to one POV). Cesiumfrog (talk) 00:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Sport and the Aikido article[edit]

The point of the article is not to be heavily weighted to one style or group. The idea that Aikido is not competitive is very important to a large number of practitioners and so although there should be mention of Shodokan and competition most of what was added regarding the the Shodokan system should be on the Shodokan page and not given undue weight in the Aikido article. The Sport Accord/International Aikido Federation (which is the International Organization of the Aikikai not a separate organization). I do Sport Aikido - I am a member of their home dojo and ran clubs for them in Japan. Its a great style but minor in the scheme of things. The IAF and Sport Accord have no relationship to the Sport Aikido style.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

A lot of effort has been put into getting a Featured Article on Aikido that was not style specific. One would hope any further edits would add improvements rather than push a particular point of view.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Aikido is also SPORT. This article did not described Aikido as a sport prior to my edittings. - Kontoreg (talk) 00:32, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
In the opinions that I have heard, people[who?] believe that Aikido is not a sport. Reliable references would help here. jmcw (talk) 09:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
The founder's son, his grandson, Michio Hikitsuchi, Mitsugi Saotome and countless other practitioners would tend to agree with you. Yunshui 雲‍水 11:24, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The entire section contains information which is style specific. Shodokan Aikido for the Tomiki stuff and Aikikai for the Sport Accord information. Together it is confusing and providing undue weight for a general article on Aikido. I will remove the section.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:47, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The sport aspect of Shodokan Aikido was meant to enhance budo training, not to create a large organized sport. So it's kind of complicated. Judo was the same way - Kano laid the groundwork for Judo to become the combat sport that it is, but he always meant for that to be a piece of Judo training and not the whole story. 2001:420:270D:1310:5548:FEC9:5250:73E8 (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

As a past student of Aikido, it's my impression that Grand-Master Ueshiba's goal was to create an ultimate and invincible martial art. Protecting the attacker from injury and having a concern for the attacker's well-being was upheld as a moral and ethical belief, but this was not the goal of this martial art, nor was there any sentimentality behind it. As a martial art the goal was to prevail over any opponent of any size.

Grand-Master Ueshiba took the art of war full circle and through it's final step. After mastering the martial arts of his era, he modified those techniques in such a way that, through an integration of mind/body, similar techniques are applied in harmony with the opponents' force. His revelation was that the only way to ensure victory over any opponent was by harmonizing with all opponents, and that love and harmony are the ultimate weapons for victory in any situation, even in the martial arts.

--Richard rogachevsky (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

This is an interesting set of comments. There could be a place in the article for this as an opposing viewpoint IF you can locate a written source (or better, several). It's challenging because much of martial arts history is oral tradition, but we can't write an encyclopedia article based on that.--Karinpower (talk) 19:31, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Appeal to clear up a source question[edit]

Appeal to clear up a source question issue asked on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fumiaki_Shishida that affects other aikido articles, therefore, an appeal for a current JAA member with current insight, who is able to definitively clear up the question of, is the source http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=612 listed in the fumiaki shisida article sound ? The question is raised in so much as the source states that shishida is " Currently a member of the Board of Directors and a technical director of the JAPAN AIKIDO ASSOCIATION." And when this statement was used recently in an update of another aikido article, then the update was readily undone and the reason given for its undoing was that it was incorrect information. The question isn't about the undoing of an update as I have no issue with the update being undone, but in the action of the undoing of the update for that reason it raises the question of, if the information is indeed incorrect, then the http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=612 source is not a sound source and its inclusion therefore, in the fumiaki shisida article and any other wiki article is questionable. But if the source is sound and the statement is correct, then there can be no objection with it remaining. Chunlinc (talk) 17:12, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

misleading redirect[edit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Japan_Aikido_Association&redirect=no

I don't know who has created or allowed this redirect, but it takes whoever clicks to search for "japan aikido association" to an article that is supposed to be a neutral article about a style of aikido.

It is blatantly misleading and promotes only one of the two main organisations of that style of aikido, i refer to it promoting the JAA, this redirect gives the suggestion that the JAA is shodokan aikido

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shodokan_Aikido&redirect=no

and this is not only incorrect but it grossly puts at a disadvantage the other main organisation, i refer to the SAF shodokan aikido federation. And as the article that the redirect leads the searcher to, again is supposed to be a neutral article that is about the style known as shodokan aikido and not an article that is about any specific organisation, therefore, action needs to be taken and the available options that would be in the true spirit of both aikido and the wikipaedia site would be to either remove the redirect altogether or alternatively and purely in the interest of balance and fairness then the creation of a redirect that allows any searcher who is searching for the "shodokan aikido federation", to be redirected to the same article that this redirect takes the searcher to. Chunlinc (talk) 08:34, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Video[edit]

There have been a number of videos serially added to different sports - some fit and others do not. Not sure about the aikido video. Quality is good but it is suwariwaza and in my mind very style specific - in other words not completely representative of aikido. Not sure what could replace it that would not have the same issues. Should we leave it? Generally I like the idea of a video and don't need it to be perfect.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:20, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I am surprised to see that video appear on Wikipedia. It is unclear to me who owns the rights but I suspect that SportAccord does. Did anyone seek their permission? I am also concerned about the fact that the techniques presented are not really representative of the whole art. I would like to offer an unbranded version of a video of Waka Sensei that I shot at the Nippon Budokan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjZ-o8InNYo) that I feel would be more appropriate to represent the art. I am not however sure in which format to create it as my editing software does not allow WebM and Ogg Theora Aikitech (talk) 05:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

If we look at the page on commons for the video commons:File:Indonesia and Malaysia Aikido Demonstration (Block 3.3) at WCG 2013.webm there is a note that its licence was reviewed by an admin on common so it looks pretty sound legally. If you are owner of the other footage you could upload it to common under an appropriate licence. --Salix alba (talk): 21:29, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
I just uploaded a video with no branding that displays a more diverse representation of Aikido performed by Ueshiba Mitsuteru, the great-grandson of the founder. It seems more appropriate to illustrate the article. I hope that this is suitable. Aikitech (talk) 04:36, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Well there is branding just in Japanese and it does not get more style specific than that BUT it is a better video that covers a range of technique so thanks for finding it.PRehse (talk) 09:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Sorry I don't understand what you mean "there is branding just in Japanese"? There is no branding, nor any watermark. I shot it myself so I would know. Anyway, I'm glad if it fits.Aikitech (talk) 10:12, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I was being tongue in cheek and thought I saw a banner in the back (but I didn't). Mitsuteru gives a very good demo that in my opinion transcends style.PRehse (talk) 10:31, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
OK thanks! Aikitech (talk) 11:36, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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Photos[edit]

Hey, uh... is it just me or do the photographs illustrating this article give the uncomfortable impression that aikido is something that began in Japan but is now practiced primarily by westerners? All but two of the "famous practitioners" listed in the infobox appear to be Japanese, but all the photos outside the "History" section are either of westerners or of Japanese with their faces concealed, which makes this feel very much like a whitewashed, Iron Fist-like "white people are better at being Asian than the actual Asians" thing... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:48, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Cleaning House[edit]

Hey, just to let anyone who's reading this know, I am currently undertaking a big project on many of the Japanese martial arts pages. Just to make it perfectly clear as to what I am and am not (currently) doing:

  • What I am NOT doing: I am not changing the information and/or content in these pages. Maybe in the future it can be looked at, but currently, that's not going to be changed (with two minor exceptions on the Aikido page). The main reason for this is that, as an article with an eight-page archive on the WikiTalk section, it's clear that this subject tends to be the victim of warring edits. Therefore, at least at first, all of my editing will be (hopefully) mostly just grammatical/linguistic cleaning up. That way, if an edit war DOES happen later over the information/content, the grammar changes themselves won't be undone, and regardless of the information contained within, the grammar will be mostly correct.

-What I AM doing: Cleaning up this article! Current major revisions include:

  • adding modifiers/articles (primarily a and the) where it is appropriate to do so (ie- the tori and the uke instead of tori and uke)
  • adding parenthesis, commas, semi-colons, etc., wherever necessary to bring this page back to a more proper English structuring/avoid run-on sentences
  • cleaning up the language section; it seems that many of the changes throughout the pages history are by a non-native English speaker, so many of the word choices are a bit odd, and there many instances where a different word is much more common and/or appropriate
  • shoring up the format of the Japanese translations, so they are consistent throughout the article (this is gonna take awhile, I think)

The exceptions to the 'no-changed content' MO:

  • and is a way for the practitioner to receive, safely, what would otherwise be a devastating strike or throw. to and is a way for the practitioner to receive an aikido technique safely and minimize risk of injury.; '"what would otherwise be a devastating throw or strike" is incredibly POV, first off, and unquantifiable. Is every technique in Aikido 'devastating'? Are some techniques 'devastating' but not others? Does 'devastating' refer to a specific form of bodily harm? The phrase has got to go.
  • Thus, from fewer than twenty basic techniques, there are thousands of possible implementations to From these few basic techniques, there are numerous of possible implementations.; Aside from being incredibly POV, it's too debatable to list an exact number. What if the possible implementations are in the hundreds? In the tens of thousands? Can you quantify every possible technique/combination/implementation to come up with an exact figure? I don't think so, so I'm keeping it ambiguous and saying numerous

Beyond that though, I don't expect to make any major revisions.

Let's get this article cleaned up! Lanner Hunt (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

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